Externe

evreu mandru din israel
2005-08-22 22:53:21

Palestinienii vor primi....

si cele doua miliarde de dolari din datoria istorica a Irakului, bani la care Romania a renuntat.

neamtu tiganu
2005-08-22 23:11:46

Ba ce titlu !!!

Sharon - mincinos, escroc, las, te vom blestema in eternitate

Brrrr, mi-e si frica sa citesc un asa titlu, nici n-am citi articolu de frica. Am vaga senzatie ca Solomoseci asta e cam antisemit. Tii sa vezi ce o sa fie pa forum.

Io ma duc mai bine la culcare ca sunt baiat sensibil si nu pot vedea singe.

Bogdan Duca
2005-08-22 23:20:15

Deplang cu evreii...

pierderea pamantului stramosilor lor...Cu toate acestea nu pot sa nu apreciez curajul de a face orice pentru pace, al premierului Sharon. E un martir care de dragul pacii, a preferat sa se sinucida politic....Oricum, sper ca se vor opri aici retragerile: de asemenea sper ca Ierusalimul va fi capitala Israelului iar moscheea lui Omar nu va mai intina un pamant atat de sfant pentru evrei si pentru crestini...Sharon nu trebuie sa cedeze Ierusalimul . Gaza, da...Nu a fost a evreilor decat dupa un razboi nedrept dar Ierusalimul este capitala sufleteasca a copiilor lui Avraam iar eu, ca si crestin cu putin sange iudaic, prefer sa vad Steaua lui David peste Ierusalim in locul semilunei pagane...

neamtu tiganu
2005-08-22 23:41:40

Re: Palestinienii vor primi....

La 2005-08-22 22:53:21, evreu mandru din israel a scris:

> si cele doua miliarde de dolari din datoria istorica a Irakului, bani
> la care Romania a renuntat.
> 
Mare noroc ca a scazut dolaru:)

Oriana
2005-08-23 00:20:17

titlul asta ofensiv putea fi redactat in ghilimele

este o minoranta care se exprima in acesti termeni, eu oriunde vad numai elogii la adresa lui Sharon, marfa rara pe aici, obisnuiti sa-l calce in picioare cu cele mai injositoare insulte.

Dan Bostan
2005-08-23 01:17:47

Gaza and the next war

The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com

Gaza and the next war

Published August 22, 2005

In the wake of the poignant images from Gaza, where the Israeli withdrawal is nearly complete, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is under intensified fire from two sets of critics: 1) those on the Israeli right who cannot understand why he would withdraw from the territory, given the lack of a serious Palestinian peace partner; and 2) the usual suspects, most of them on the left, who see every unreciprocated Israeli concession to the Palestinians as insufficient. For example, the New York Times editorialized that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza can only be the beginning, and that Mr. Sharon must give up the West Bank next.
It would be difficult to find an argument more disconnected from reality; anyone who thinks that more Israeli concessions comprise the magic way to peace should look carefully at the experience of the past 12 years. In 1993, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin recognized Yasser Arafat and the PLO as the representatives of the Palestinian people. Over the next seven years, Israel ceded most of Gaza and nearly all of the major West Bank cities to Mr. Arafat's Palestinian Authority and (often with the encouragement of the Clinton administration) overlooked the fact that he was arming terrorist militias in the West Bank, doing nothing to put Hamas's terrorist infrastructure out of business and enabling raw anti-Semitic incitement in the Palestinian Authority-controlled media.
In July 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Mr. Arafat a Palestinian state that would have included Gaza, nearly the entire West Bank; and eastern Jerusalem. Mr. Arafat rejected the Barak offer and opened a war of terror that killed 1,000 Israelis and 3,000 Palestinians. While the "peace process" was going forward, Israel unilaterally withdrew its forces from southern Lebanon; Hezbollah and its patrons in Tehran and Damascus responded to this Israeli concession by stepping up their weapons and logistical support for the terror war Mr. Arafat unleashed in the West Bank and Gaza in the fall of 2000.
But the war proved to be a disaster for the terrorist groups, particularly Hamas. One reason why the current Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, could sign a cease-fire deal earlier this year with Mr. Sharon is that Israel, acting on its own, killed two of Hamas's leaders and destroyed much of Hamas's capability as a fighting force. Since February, Israel has scaled back its operations in Palestinian Authority-controlled areas against Hamas and other terrorist groups in the hope that Mr. Abbas will restrain the terrorists. In fact, he is doing precisely the opposite: Much like Yasser Arafat following the signing of Oslo I in 1993, Mr. Abbas seeks to co-opt Hamas by not forcing it to disarm and instead working with it to maintain a temporary "calm." (In short, to permit the terrorists to regroup and rebuild to target Israel on another day.) Although Mr. Abbas has consolidated Palestinian security services, he has not dealt with the larger and far more serious problem: the lawlessness and thuggery, usually involving armed members of his Fatah organization, that pervades areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority. Murderous anti-Semitism remains. On Saturday, for example, the Palestinian minister of Islamic affairs said the 1969 attack on al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem by a deranged Australian tourist was actually the work of the Israelis.
Further signs of trouble are everywhere. Over the weekend, a Hamas-affiliated Web site announced that dozens of women in the Gaza Strip had joined its military wing and were planning to carry out attacks against Israel. Hamas boss Mahmoud al-Zahar said last week that his organization is moving its forces to the West Bank and Israeli towns are "settlements" subject to attack. Even as Mr. Abbas was declaring that the Palestinian Authority would control areas evacuated by Israel, dozens of Hamas gunmen held a "press conference" in Gaza City to announce they would target Israel after disengagement.
Mr. Sharon's critics on the right suggest that, because Israel has no viable Palestinian peace partner, the Gaza pullout is a mistake, a show of weakness. Hamas and the other terrorist groups are busily spinning it that way. We agree with Mr. Sharon's argument that the defense resources spent on protecting outlying Gaza settlements could be better allocated to protect the country against terrorism. Israel should adopt a policy of relentless and massive deterrence, guaranteeing that Gaza-based terrorists will be hit very hard every time they fire rockets into Israel. For such a deterrence policy to work, it is essential that Washington support Israel when it defends itself against terror.




Copyright © 2005 News World Communications, Inc. All rights reserved.
Return to the article
Get Copyright Clearance Click Here For Commercial Reprints and Permissions
Copyright © 2005 News World Communications, Inc.

Dan Bostan
2005-08-23 01:26:35

The demographics of radical Islam

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GH23Aa01.html

The demographics of radical Islam

By Spengler

General staffs before World War I began war planning with demographic tables, calculating how many men of military age they might feed to the machine guns. France preferred an early war because its stagnant population would not produce enough soldiers a generation hence to fight Germany. Only Israel’s general staff looks at demographic tables today, to draw prospective boundaries that will enclose a future Jewish majority.

Demographics still provide vital strategic information, albeit in quite a different fashion. Today’s Islamists think like the French general staff in 1914. Islam has one generation in which to establish a global theocracy before hitting a demographic barrier. Islam has enough young men - the pool of unemployed Arabs is expected to reach 25 million by 2010 - to fight a war during the next 30 years. Because of mass migration to Western Europe, the worst of the war might be fought on European soil.

Although the Muslim birth rate today is the world’s second highest (after sub-Saharan Africa), it is falling faster than the birth rate of any other culture. By 2050, according to the latest UN projections, the population growth rate of the Muslim world will converge on that of the United States (although it will be much higher than Europe's or China's).

Falling fertility measures the growing influence of modernity upon the Muslim world. Literacy rates, especially female literacy, best explain the difference between the very high fertility rates of pre-modern society and the moderate fertility rates of industrial countries, as I showed in a recent study (Death by secularism: The statistical evidence, August 1, 2005).

This is clearly the case in the Muslim world where the lowest rates of adult literacy correspond to the highest population growth rate. Literacy alone explains 58% of the variation in birth rates among Muslim countries.

Urbanization, literacy, and openness to the modern world ultimately will suppress the Muslim womb, in the absence of radical measures. In a new volume of essays on modern Islamic thought, the Islamists Suha Taji-Farouki and Basheer M Nafi observe, "Rather than being a development within cultural traditions that is internally generated, 20th century Islamic thought is constitutively responsive; it is substantially a reaction to extrinsic challenges." [1] The challenge stems from the transformation of Muslim life:

In the Middle East of 1900, for example, less than 10% of the inhabitants were city dwellers; by 1980, 47% were urban. In 1800, Cairo had a population of 250,000, rising to 600,000 by the beginning of the 20th century. The unprecedented influx of immigrants from rural areas brought the population of Cairo to almost 8 million by 1980. Massive urbanization altered patterns of living, of housing and architecture, of the human relation with space and land, of marketing, employment, and consumption, and the very structure of family and social hierarchy. [2]

The sharp fall in the Muslim population growth rate expresses the extreme fragility of traditional society. Translated into the Islamist vocabulary (citing again Taji-Farouki and Nafi), this means that:

A Muslim sense of vulnerability and outrage is further exacerbated by the seemingly unstoppable encroachment of American popular culture and modes of consumerism and the transparent hypocrisy of the American rhetoric of universal rights and liberties. It is also stoked by Western ambivalence towards economic disparities in the world. [3]

Rapid urbanization, to be sure, produced growing pains in every case on record. Britain transported its displaced population to America and then to Australia, including the "clearing" of entire Scots villages forced onto ships for Canada. But Britain’s urbanization coincided with rapid economic growth and improving living standards. The Arab world’s urbanization has only created a stagnant pool of urban poor. As the London Economist summarized in the United Nations Arab Development Report for 2002:

One in five Arabs still live on less than $2 a day. And over the past 20 years growth in income per head, at an annual rate of .5%, was lower than anywhere else in the world except sub-Saharan Africa. At this rate, says the report, it will take the average Arab 140 years to double his income, a target that some regions are set to reach in less than 10 years. Stagnant growth, together with a fast-rising population, means vanishing jobs. About 12 million people, or 15% of the labor force, are already unemployed, and on present trends the number could rise to 25 million by 2010. [4]

Excluding Indonesia, the Muslim’s world literacy rate stands at only 53%, against 81% for China; Arab literacy is only 50%. Only 1% of the population owns a personal computer. It is delusional to believe that the Arab world, which now exports (net of oil) as much as Finland, might come to compete with China, India and the rest of Asia in the global market for goods and services.

Just as the Muslim population peaks, the one bounty that nature has bestowed upon the Arabs, namely oil, will begin to diminish. According to the US Department of Energy, conventional oil production will peak just before 2050 at the present 2% rate of production growth.

In short, the Muslim world half a century from now can expect the short end of the stick from the modern world. It has generated only two great surpluses, namely people and oil. By the middle of the century both of these will have begun to dwindle. But at the moment it has 25 million idle young men. No leader can remain in power who does not give them a destination to march to.

By no means does that imply that all of these 25 million will become suicide bombers, but a great many of them are likely to emigrate to Europe, including Eastern Europe, where populations are stagnant and about to decline. A Muslim takeover of Western Europe surely is a possible outcome.

Notes
[1] Suha Taji-Farouki and Basheer M. Nafi, Islamic Thought in the Twentieth Century (Tauris: London 2004), p 9
[2] Ibid, p 2
[3] Op cit, p 14
[4] Economist, July 4, 2002

(Copyright 2005 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us for information on sales, syndication and republishing.)



The Complete Spengler

Youth become fodder for terror (Jun 16, '04)

Dan Bostan
2005-08-23 01:28:37

ON TO JERUSALEM'

'ON TO JERUSALEM'

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/52309.htm

PHOTO BANNER DAY: Palestinian children yesterday wave their people's flag after the withdrawal of Israeli settlers as some elders talked tough.


August 21, 2005 -- GAZA CITY — Hamas terrorists vowed yesterday to drive Israel out of the West Bank and Jerusalem.

"Gaza is not Palestine," a masked spokesman for Hamas' armed wing declared, making it clear the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip will not satisfy the fanatical terrorist group.

"As for Jerusalem and the West Bank, we will seek to liberate them by resistance just as the Gaza Strip was liberated," said the spokesman, surrounded by gunmen with rocket launchers.

But he did not say Hamas planned to abandon its truce, set to last until the end of the year.

Militants have agreed to respect the cease-fire at the behest of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who wants to ensure a quiet withdrawal of the Gaza settlers.

The appearance of the masked Hamas gunmen — who briefly took over Gaza City's central square — was a direct challenge to Abbas, who has appealed to militants not to flaunt their weapons in public.

It also underscored the reluctance of Abbas' police to confront gunmen.

"This retreat [by Israel] does not mean the end of our battle, but it is the beginning," said one of the gunmen.

While the pullout is seen by most of the international community as a step towards reviving negotiations on Palestinian statehood in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, terrorists see it as a victory for their side.

Israel has said there can be no talks before the dismantling of groups like Hamas, the biggest faction behind terrorist suicide bombings, shootings and rocket attacks against Israel.

"Our arms removed the Zionist enemy and therefore we will not abandon our weapons and we will not hand them over to anybody," said the Hamas spokesman.

He insisted the issue "was not up for discussion."

Abbas, meanwhile, signed a decree giving his government control over all lands and assets left behind by Israeli troops and settlers.

The decree said no one can make personal use of the real estate until ownership has been sorted out.

He also scheduled parliamentary elections for Jan. 25, a move that could boost his international credibility and encourage Hamas, his major political rival, to hold its fire.

Post Wire Services

jan dinu
2005-08-23 01:29:15

Se vede ca-s fratzii de-ai nostri !

Domne ,ce-au copiat cu precizie ---BABELE---noastre
cind erau la o shedintza de dat in boabe exxxoterice ,
E bine ca traditia se pastreaza din gura-n gura ..si acolo :
cind se spura --- cind se -njura ...la-un pahar cu bautura !..:))
JD

Oriana
2005-08-23 01:31:25

Hamas o s-o ia tare la scafarlie, Sharon abia asteapta sa-l "bazaie" iar

"dozens of Hamas gunmen held a "press conference" in Gaza City to announce they would target Israel after disengagement".


La 2005-08-23 01:17:47, Dan Bostan a scris:

> The Washington Times
> www.washingtontimes.com
> 
> Gaza and the next war
> 
> Published August 22, 2005
> 
> In the wake of the poignant images from Gaza, where the Israeli
> withdrawal is nearly complete, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is under
> intensified fire from two sets of critics: 1) those on the Israeli
> right who cannot understand why he would withdraw from the territory,
> given the lack of a serious Palestinian peace partner; and 2) the
> usual suspects, most of them on the left, who see every
> unreciprocated Israeli concession to the Palestinians as
> insufficient. For example, the New York Times editorialized that the
> Israeli withdrawal from Gaza can only be the beginning, and that Mr.
> Sharon must give up the West Bank next.
>  It would be difficult to find an argument more disconnected from
> reality; anyone who thinks that more Israeli concessions comprise the
> magic way to peace should look carefully at the experience of the past
> 12 years. In 1993, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin recognized Yasser
> Arafat and the PLO as the representatives of the Palestinian people.
> Over the next seven years, Israel ceded most of Gaza and nearly all
> of the major West Bank cities to Mr. Arafat's Palestinian Authority
> and (often with the encouragement of the Clinton administration)
> overlooked the fact that he was arming terrorist militias in the West
> Bank, doing nothing to put Hamas's terrorist infrastructure out of
> business and enabling raw anti-Semitic incitement in the Palestinian
> Authority-controlled media.
>  In July 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Mr. Arafat a
> Palestinian state that would have included Gaza, nearly the entire
> West Bank; and eastern Jerusalem. Mr. Arafat rejected the Barak offer
> and opened a war of terror that killed 1,000 Israelis and 3,000
> Palestinians. While the "peace process" was going forward,
> Israel unilaterally withdrew its forces from southern Lebanon;
> Hezbollah and its patrons in Tehran and Damascus responded to this
> Israeli concession by stepping up their weapons and logistical
> support for the terror war Mr. Arafat unleashed in the West Bank and
> Gaza in the fall of 2000.
>  But the war proved to be a disaster for the terrorist groups,
> particularly Hamas. One reason why the current Palestinian president,
> Mahmoud Abbas, could sign a cease-fire deal earlier this year with Mr.
> Sharon is that Israel, acting on its own, killed two of Hamas's
> leaders and destroyed much of Hamas's capability as a fighting force.
> Since February, Israel has scaled back its operations in Palestinian
> Authority-controlled areas against Hamas and other terrorist groups
> in the hope that Mr. Abbas will restrain the terrorists. In fact, he
> is doing precisely the opposite: Much like Yasser Arafat following
> the signing of Oslo I in 1993, Mr. Abbas seeks to co-opt Hamas by not
> forcing it to disarm and instead working with it to maintain a
> temporary "calm." (In short, to permit the terrorists to
> regroup and rebuild to target Israel on another day.) Although Mr.
> Abbas has consolidated Palestinian security services, he has not
> dealt with the larger and far more serious problem: the lawlessness
> and thuggery, usually involving armed members of his Fatah
> organization, that pervades areas controlled by the Palestinian
> Authority. Murderous anti-Semitism remains. On Saturday, for example,
> the Palestinian minister of Islamic affairs said the 1969 attack on
> al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem by a deranged Australian tourist was
> actually the work of the Israelis.
>  Further signs of trouble are everywhere. Over the weekend, a
> Hamas-affiliated Web site announced that dozens of women in the Gaza
> Strip had joined its military wing and were planning to carry out
> attacks against Israel. Hamas boss Mahmoud al-Zahar said last week
> that his organization is moving its forces to the West Bank and
> Israeli towns are "settlements" subject to attack. Even as
> Mr. Abbas was declaring that the Palestinian Authority would control
> areas evacuated by Israel, dozens of Hamas gunmen held a "press
> conference" in Gaza City to announce they would target Israel
> after disengagement.
>  Mr. Sharon's critics on the right suggest that, because Israel
> has no viable Palestinian peace partner, the Gaza pullout is a
> mistake, a show of weakness. Hamas and the other terrorist groups are
> busily spinning it that way. We agree with Mr. Sharon's argument that
> the defense resources spent on protecting outlying Gaza settlements
> could be better allocated to protect the country against terrorism.
> Israel should adopt a policy of relentless and massive deterrence,
> guaranteeing that Gaza-based terrorists will be hit very hard every
> time they fire rockets into Israel. For such a deterrence policy to
> work, it is essential that Washington support Israel when it defends
> itself against terror.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Copyright © 2005 News World Communications, Inc. All rights
> reserved.
> Return to the article
> Get Copyright Clearance Click Here For Commercial Reprints and
> Permissions
> Copyright © 2005 News World Communications, Inc.
> 
> 

Mache
2005-08-23 01:47:51

Re: Palestinienii vor primi....

La 2005-08-22 22:53:21, evreu mandru din israel a scris:

> si cele doua miliarde de dolari din datoria istorica a Irakului, bani
> la care Romania a renuntat.
> 

Generalizezi. Numai cativa dintre ei (adica cei alesi) vor primi banu'. Restu' muflonilor o sa ramana cu masti pe bot si o sa oracaie nervosi in continuare printre mormanele de moloz.

BaRoNuL
2005-08-23 02:14:03

TRADUCEREA CAND O POSTEZI?(NDC)

La 2005-08-23 01:28:37, Dan Bostan a scris:

>  'ON TO JERUSALEM'
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/52309.htm
> 
> PHOTO BANNER DAY: Palestinian children yesterday wave their people's
> flag after the withdrawal of Israeli settlers as some elders talked
> tough.
> 
> 
> August 21, 2005 -- GAZA CITY — Hamas terrorists vowed
> yesterday to drive Israel out of the West Bank and Jerusalem.
> 
> "Gaza is not Palestine," a masked spokesman for Hamas' armed
> wing declared, making it clear the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza
> Strip will not satisfy the fanatical terrorist group.
> 
> "As for Jerusalem and the West Bank, we will seek to liberate
> them by resistance just as the Gaza Strip was liberated," said
> the spokesman, surrounded by gunmen with rocket launchers.
> 
> But he did not say Hamas planned to abandon its truce, set to last
> until the end of the year.
> 
> Militants have agreed to respect the cease-fire at the behest of
> Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who wants to ensure a quiet
> withdrawal of the Gaza settlers.
> 
> The appearance of the masked Hamas gunmen — who briefly took
> over Gaza City's central square — was a direct challenge to
> Abbas, who has appealed to militants not to flaunt their weapons in
> public.
> 
> It also underscored the reluctance of Abbas' police to confront
> gunmen.
> 
> "This retreat [by Israel] does not mean the end of our battle,
> but it is the beginning," said one of the gunmen.
> 
> While the pullout is seen by most of the international community as a
> step towards reviving negotiations on Palestinian statehood in the
> West Bank and Gaza Strip, terrorists see it as a victory for their
> side.
> 
> Israel has said there can be no talks before the dismantling of groups
> like Hamas, the biggest faction behind terrorist suicide bombings,
> shootings and rocket attacks against Israel.
> 
> "Our arms removed the Zionist enemy and therefore we will not
> abandon our weapons and we will not hand them over to anybody,"
> said the Hamas spokesman.
> 
> He insisted the issue "was not up for discussion."
> 
> Abbas, meanwhile, signed a decree giving his government control over
> all lands and assets left behind by Israeli troops and settlers.
> 
> The decree said no one can make personal use of the real estate until
> ownership has been sorted out.
> 
> He also scheduled parliamentary elections for Jan. 25, a move that
> could boost his international credibility and encourage Hamas, his
> major political rival, to hold its fire.
> 
> Post Wire Services
> 
> 
> 

Val
2005-08-23 04:31:47

Re: Palestinienii vor primi....

Pregatesc un nou val de sinucigasi ?????


La 2005-08-22 22:53:21, evreu mandru din israel a scris:

> si cele doua miliarde de dolari din datoria istorica a Irakului, bani
> la care Romania a renuntat.
> 

Val
2005-08-23 04:43:55

Re: Gaza and the next war / and the next SharoDan

Dane, Sharon are zeci de ani de politica !!!!!!
Chiar daca omul nu-mi place, nu-l pot acuza de prostie !!!!
Omul stie ce face, nu prea explica el si nu cred ca simte nevoia ca prea multi sa inteleaga, si o sa vina timpul cind o sa si intelegem. E posibil ca atunci sa nu fiu de acord sau chiar sa-l consider imoral.

Doar incearca sa-ti potolesti frustarea, Sharon nu a sa-ti ceara tie sfatul si nici ziarelor pe care le copiezi. De cind maestrul cere sfatul servitorilor ????




La 2005-08-23 01:17:47, Dan Bostan a scris:

> The Washington Times
> www.washingtontimes.com
> 
> Gaza and the next war
> 
>

Val
2005-08-23 04:49:20

Re: Deplang cu evreii...

Si eu te depling ..... ca traiesti in Ro !!!!
Cit de "martirul care s-a "sinucis pollitic" ce e aia ???? Oda lui Ceasca ???
Vezi ca Sharon cauta sfatuitori, de preferinta romani, ca ei le stiu pe toate .....

PS.
De ce nu te duci in Israel sa pui umarul la "apararea paminturilor sramosesti", si s-o lasi mai moale cu hei rup-ul .....

La 2005-08-22 23:20:15, Bogdan Duca a scris:

>  pierderea pamantului stramosilor lor...Cu toate acestea nu pot sa nu
> apreciez curajul de a face orice pentru pace, al premierului Sharon.
> E un martir care de dragul pacii, a preferat sa se sinucida
> politic....Oricum, sper ca se vor opri aici retragerile: de asemenea
> sper ca Ierusalimul va fi capitala Israelului iar moscheea lui Omar
> nu va mai intina un pamant atat de sfant pentru evrei si pentru
> crestini...Sharon nu trebuie sa cedeze Ierusalimul . Gaza, da...Nu a
> fost a evreilor decat dupa un razboi nedrept dar Ierusalimul este
> capitala sufleteasca a copiilor lui Avraam iar eu, ca si crestin cu
> putin sange iudaic, prefer sa vad Steaua lui David peste Ierusalim in
> locul semilunei pagane...
> 

Mache
2005-08-23 04:54:45

Re: Gaza and the next war / and the next SharoDan

Da, e adevarat ca e vulpe batrana (Sharon). E foarte posibil ca sa-si faca partea lui din targ si sa astepte cu calm ca palestinienii sa dea cu mucii in fasole (ceea ce e previzibil) ca apoi sa loveasca in mod temeinic. Oricume nasol ca pace tot nu va fi prea curand.

La 2005-08-23 04:43:55, Val a scris:

> Dane, Sharon are zeci de ani de politica !!!!!!
> Chiar daca omul nu-mi place, nu-l pot acuza de prostie !!!!
> Omul stie ce face, nu prea explica el si nu cred ca simte nevoia ca
> prea multi sa inteleaga, si o sa vina timpul cind o sa si intelegem.
> E posibil ca atunci sa nu fiu de acord sau chiar sa-l consider
> imoral.
> 
> Doar incearca sa-ti potolesti frustarea, Sharon nu a sa-ti ceara tie
> sfatul si nici ziarelor pe care le copiezi. De cind maestrul cere
> sfatul servitorilor ????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La 2005-08-23 01:17:47, Dan Bostan a scris:
> 
> > The Washington Times
> > www.washingtontimes.com
> > 
> > Gaza and the next war
> > 
> >
> 

radulupu
2005-08-23 05:40:26

ba, zi-o in romana!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...........bostane, nu ma face sa gandesc cine stie ce despre tine!
la servici esti liber sa gandesti in engleza, dar daca tot intri pe un ziar romanesc, ZI-O IN ROMANA, NEAMULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
doar daca nu ti-e rusine de unde ai venit, adice de mirosul de zer
hai pa

Serp i Molot
2005-08-23 06:43:24

Re: Se vede ca-s fratzii de-ai nostri !

La 2005-08-23 01:29:15, jan dinu a scris:

> Domne ,ce-au copiat cu precizie ---BABELE---noastre
> cind erau la o shedintza de dat in boabe exxxoterice ,
> E bine ca traditia se pastreaza din gura-n gura ..si acolo :
> cind se spura --- cind se -njura ...la-un pahar cu bautura !..:))
> JD

==============

se scrie "frati" cu un singur "i" numai

Serp i Molot
2005-08-23 06:51:37

Re: The demographics of radical Islam

La 2005-08-23 01:26:35, Dan Bostan a scris:

> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GH23Aa01.html

===========

bostanii se coc mai la toamna ....

Serp i Molot
2005-08-23 06:53:07

Re: Deplang cu evreii...

La 2005-08-22 23:20:15, Bogdan Duca a scris:

>  pierderea pamantului stramosilor lor...Cu toate acestea nu pot sa nu
> apreciez curajul de a face orice pentru pace, al premierului Sharon.
> E un martir care de dragul pacii, a preferat sa se sinucida
> politic....Oricum, sper ca se vor opri aici retragerile: de asemenea
> sper ca Ierusalimul va fi capitala Israelului iar moscheea lui Omar
> nu va mai intina un pamant atat de sfant pentru evrei si pentru
> crestini...Sharon nu trebuie sa cedeze Ierusalimul . Gaza, da...Nu a
> fost a evreilor decat dupa un razboi nedrept dar Ierusalimul este
> capitala sufleteasca a copiilor lui Avraam iar eu, ca si crestin cu
> putin sange iudaic, prefer sa vad Steaua lui David peste Ierusalim in
> locul semilunei pagane...

=============================

degeaba-i pupi undeva si faci pe sluga , ca nici unul nu-ti va arunca saculetul de arginti dupa care tinjesti ....

evreu mandru din israel
2005-08-23 07:59:58

Re: Ba ce titlu !!!

Exact asa i s-a spus! Dl. Tesu nu minte, a exagerat putzin cand a scris ca Sharon era alb la fata de frica blestemului. Sharon devine alb la fatza numai cand se gandeste la reglarea conturilor cu shobolanii. Si Sharon nu a ramas dator niciodata, nimanui.


La 2005-08-22 23:11:46, neamtu tiganu a scris:

> Sharon - mincinos, escroc, las, te vom blestema in eternitate
> 
> Brrrr, mi-e si frica sa citesc un asa titlu, nici n-am citi articolu
> de frica. Am vaga senzatie ca Solomoseci asta e cam antisemit. Tii sa
> vezi ce o sa fie pa forum.
> 
> Io ma duc mai bine la culcare ca sunt baiat sensibil si nu pot vedea
> singe.
> 

evreu mandru din israel
2005-08-23 08:13:07

Re: Deplang cu evreii...

Imi pare rau dar Gaza, pana in 1967 a fost parte din Egipt, nu era stat suveran. In acest an, presedintele egiptian Gamal Abdul Nasser a alungat fortele ONU stationate in peninsula SINAI, si-a concentrat armata la granita cu Israel si a blocat stramtoarea Tiran si portul israelian Eilat, situat pe malul Marii Rosii. Toate apelurile israeliene la comunitatea internationala au cazut pe urechi surde, si dupa trei saptamani de stare de urgenta, nevoita sa recruteze toate fortele armate de rezerva, lucru care a paralizat total economia tarii, Israelul a dat o lovitura preventiva si a cucerit Gaza. Cunosti un razboi mai drept?

La 2005-08-22 23:20:15, Bogdan Duca a scris:

Gaza, da...Nu a  fost a evreilor decat dupa un razboi nedrept > 

evreu mandru din israel
2005-08-23 08:40:54

Re: Gaza and the next war

Planul lui Sharon e simplu.
Daca vom avea un partener palestinian, se va negocia cu el si poate vom ajunge la un acord de pace.
Nu vom avea cu cine negocia, si asa va fi daca palestinienii nu vor renunta la dreptul de reintoarcere a palestinienilor in statul Israel, Israelul va decide singur care vor fi granitele tarii si se va retrage unilateral din teritoriile cu populatie palestiniana densa si toate coloniile in aceste teritorii vor fi desfiintate. Practic, inseamna evacuarea a inca 80000 de oameni. Vor ramane 150000 concentrati in coloniile de langa "linia verde" (granita cu Iordania pana la razboiul din 1967), care se afla pe partea de vest a gardului de securitate. Acest teritoriu va fi anexat la Israel . Daca palestinienii vor continua lupta terorista dupa aceasta retragere din Cisiordania, nu va mai fi nici-o restrictie la riposta israeliana, vor bubui tunurile si va fi prapad.

La 2005-08-23 01:17:47, Dan Bostan a scris:

> The Washington Times
> www.washingtontimes.com
> 
> Gaza and the next war
> 
> Published August 22, 2005
> 
> In the wake of the poignant images from Gaza, where the Israeli
> withdrawal is nearly complete, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is under
> intensified fire from two sets of critics: 1) those on the Israeli
> right who cannot understand why he would withdraw from the territory,
> given the lack of a serious Palestinian peace partner; and 2) the
> usual suspects, most of them on the left, who see every
> unreciprocated Israeli concession to the Palestinians as
> insufficient. For example, the New York Times editorialized that the
> Israeli withdrawal from Gaza can only be the beginning, and that Mr.
> Sharon must give up the West Bank next.
>  It would be difficult to find an argument more disconnected from
> reality; anyone who thinks that more Israeli concessions comprise the
> magic way to peace should look carefully at the experience of the past
> 12 years. In 1993, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin recognized Yasser
> Arafat and the PLO as the representatives of the Palestinian people.
> Over the next seven years, Israel ceded most of Gaza and nearly all
> of the major West Bank cities to Mr. Arafat's Palestinian Authority
> and (often with the encouragement of the Clinton administration)
> overlooked the fact that he was arming terrorist militias in the West
> Bank, doing nothing to put Hamas's terrorist infrastructure out of
> business and enabling raw anti-Semitic incitement in the Palestinian
> Authority-controlled media.
>  In July 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Mr. Arafat a
> Palestinian state that would have included Gaza, nearly the entire
> West Bank; and eastern Jerusalem. Mr. Arafat rejected the Barak offer
> and opened a war of terror that killed 1,000 Israelis and 3,000
> Palestinians. While the "peace process" was going forward,
> Israel unilaterally withdrew its forces from southern Lebanon;
> Hezbollah and its patrons in Tehran and Damascus responded to this
> Israeli concession by stepping up their weapons and logistical
> support for the terror war Mr. Arafat unleashed in the West Bank and
> Gaza in the fall of 2000.
>  But the war proved to be a disaster for the terrorist groups,
> particularly Hamas. One reason why the current Palestinian president,
> Mahmoud Abbas, could sign a cease-fire deal earlier this year with Mr.
> Sharon is that Israel, acting on its own, killed two of Hamas's
> leaders and destroyed much of Hamas's capability as a fighting force.
> Since February, Israel has scaled back its operations in Palestinian
> Authority-controlled areas against Hamas and other terrorist groups
> in the hope that Mr. Abbas will restrain the terrorists. In fact, he
> is doing precisely the opposite: Much like Yasser Arafat following
> the signing of Oslo I in 1993, Mr. Abbas seeks to co-opt Hamas by not
> forcing it to disarm and instead working with it to maintain a
> temporary "calm." (In short, to permit the terrorists to
> regroup and rebuild to target Israel on another day.) Although Mr.
> Abbas has consolidated Palestinian security services, he has not
> dealt with the larger and far more serious problem: the lawlessness
> and thuggery, usually involving armed members of his Fatah
> organization, that pervades areas controlled by the Palestinian
> Authority. Murderous anti-Semitism remains. On Saturday, for example,
> the Palestinian minister of Islamic affairs said the 1969 attack on
> al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem by a deranged Australian tourist was
> actually the work of the Israelis.
>  Further signs of trouble are everywhere. Over the weekend, a
> Hamas-affiliated Web site announced that dozens of women in the Gaza
> Strip had joined its military wing and were planning to carry out
> attacks against Israel. Hamas boss Mahmoud al-Zahar said last week
> that his organization is moving its forces to the West Bank and
> Israeli towns are "settlements" subject to attack. Even as
> Mr. Abbas was declaring that the Palestinian Authority would control
> areas evacuated by Israel, dozens of Hamas gunmen held a "press
> conference" in Gaza City to announce they would target Israel
> after disengagement.
>  Mr. Sharon's critics on the right suggest that, because Israel
> has no viable Palestinian peace partner, the Gaza pullout is a
> mistake, a show of weakness. Hamas and the other terrorist groups are
> busily spinning it that way. We agree with Mr. Sharon's argument that
> the defense resources spent on protecting outlying Gaza settlements
> could be better allocated to protect the country against terrorism.
> Israel should adopt a policy of relentless and massive deterrence,
> guaranteeing that Gaza-based terrorists will be hit very hard every
> time they fire rockets into Israel. For such a deterrence policy to
> work, it is essential that Washington support Israel when it defends
> itself against terror.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Copyright © 2005 News World Communications, Inc. All rights
> reserved.
> Return to the article
> Get Copyright Clearance Click Here For Commercial Reprints and
> Permissions
> Copyright © 2005 News World Communications, Inc.
> 
> 

George-Felix
2005-08-23 10:26:57

Re: Gaza and the next war

La 2005-08-23 08:40:54, evreu mandru din israel a scris:

> Planul lui Sharon e simplu.


Sa stii ca si eu am aceiasi impresie. Si nici macar nu e un plan nou, ca similar au gandit si alde Barak. De fapt asta spune Israelul dintotdeauna:
- daca avem cu cine negocia, suntem gata sa discutam pe bune si sa facem si sacrificii
- daca nu avem cu cine negocia, suntem gata si sa folosim armele

In plus, acum Sharon are un atu: retragerea din Gaza poate fi tare amara pentru palestinieni, daca nu e un plan de pace care sa le dea de mancare:) Acum Abbas o sa fie pus in situatia de a trebui sa negocieze pe bune sau sa ia calea armelor pe bune. Nu prea mai are loc de joc dublu.., parrea mea.


Totusi, dureroasa chestie pentru colonisti..,


Felix

CHIORU
2005-08-23 10:51:03

colonistii trebuie sa se care de urgenta din teritorii.

sa zica mersi ca primesc in medie 1.4 milioane despagubiri (pt niste vile pe care oricum le au primit de la stat aproape pe de a moaca).
de data asta il sprijin pe sharon.

Oriana
2005-08-23 12:21:23

 "sa zica mersi ca primesc in medie 1.4 milioane despagubiri"

dar de ce taci chitic la zecile de milioane de dolari care "ploua" peste palestinieni de la Usa, ma refer pt. locuinte, ma refer la sistemul de depuratie a apei, etc, etc ? hai sa fim obiectivi, macar o data pe zi


La 2005-08-23 10:51:03, CHIORU a scris:

> sa zica mersi ca primesc in medie 1.4 milioane despagubiri (pt niste
> vile pe care oricum le au primit de la stat aproape pe de a moaca).
> de data asta il sprijin pe sharon.
> 

patriot
2005-08-23 13:30:55

Re:  "sa zica mersi ca primesc in medie 1.4 milioane despagubiri"

Dar tu de ce taci chitic la raportul populatiei in acea zona. In Gaza 25% din teritoriu a fost ocupat de 8000 de coloni evrei. In cealalta suprafata de 75% traiesc peste 1 milion de palestinieni, pe care evreii i-au expulzat cind le-au rapit pamintul.

La 2005-08-23 12:21:23, Oriana a scris:

> dar de ce taci chitic la zecile de milioane de dolari care
> "ploua" peste palestinieni de la Usa, ma refer pt.
> locuinte, ma refer la sistemul de depuratie a apei, etc, etc ? hai sa
> fim obiectivi, macar o data pe zi
> 
> 
> La 2005-08-23 10:51:03, CHIORU a scris:
> 
> > sa zica mersi ca primesc in medie 1.4 milioane despagubiri (pt niste
> > vile pe care oricum le au primit de la stat aproape pe de a moaca).
> > de data asta il sprijin pe sharon.
> > 
> 
> 

CHIORU
2005-08-23 13:45:41

oriana - imi pare rau ca nu stiu sa postez raspuns pe acelasi

(grup de discutie si de aia sunt nevoit sa ti raspund de fiecare data separat).
e corect ce spui tu (ca eu nu ma refer la banii care ploua peste palestinieni) - insa - trebuie sa intelegi si tu un lucru (pe care nu ai cum sa l sti deoarece nu traiesti aici) - ceea ce ma enerveaza pe mine si pe inca multi altii este politica de - pt unii muma pt altii ciuma - nu este posibil ca in teritorii sa ploua cu bani si subsidii etc etc etc si in interiorul liniei verzi (in israelul propiu zis) sa fie un chin pana iti cumperi un apartament prapadit mic si vechi.
nu este acceptabil ca unii (aproape neproductivi si aroganti fata de stat) care stiu sa jumuleasca banii publici, sa si poata permite fara probleme vile subsidiate grosolan din taxele contribuabililor - si altii sa se chinuie cu salarii de mizerie si datorii enorme la banca - daca n ai stiut - asta e principalul motiv pt care majoritatea israelienilor nu i inghit pe colonisti,
ciao carra.

Oriana
2005-08-23 13:59:47

"Dar tu de ce taci chitic":nici un chitic

mergi innapoi, ai sarit paginile cu razboiul de 6 zile, pornit de aleanta pan-araba, de la Nasser egipteanul inainte.
Bineinteles ca le stiu si eu procentele astea, dar acum ca Gaza e evacuata, ce sa mai scormonim mortii?, sa ne uitam inainte si sa vedem ce soarta o sa aiba Gaza cu palestinienii (or cu Hamas, asat e dilema, va vad prin ziare ca-si cam scot ochii intre ei si se zgaraie nasol...)


La 2005-08-23 13:30:55, patriot a scris:

> 
> Dar tu de ce taci chitic la raportul populatiei in acea zona. In Gaza
> 25% din teritoriu a fost ocupat de 8000 de coloni evrei. In cealalta
> suprafata de 75% traiesc peste 1 milion de palestinieni, pe care
> evreii i-au expulzat cind le-au rapit pamintul.
> 
> La 2005-08-23 12:21:23, Oriana a scris:
> 
> > dar de ce taci chitic la zecile de milioane de dolari care
> > "ploua" peste palestinieni de la Usa, ma refer pt.
> > locuinte, ma refer la sistemul de depuratie a apei, etc, etc ? hai sa
> > fim obiectivi, macar o data pe zi
> > 
> > 
> > La 2005-08-23 10:51:03, CHIORU a scris:
> > 
> > > sa zica mersi ca primesc in medie 1.4 milioane despagubiri (pt niste
> > > vile pe care oricum le au primit de la stat aproape pe de a moaca).
> > > de data asta il sprijin pe sharon.
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

Oriana
2005-08-23 14:06:48

principalul motiv pt care majoritatea israelienilor nu i inghit pe colonisti

stai linistit, vad ca Sharon intoarce foaia si cu acesti colonisti- a' propos, chiar m-a indignat tepismul ala gratuit cu aruncatul de acid peste bietii soldati tineri, trimisi fara arme si cat se poate de intelegatori -
Cat despre casa, oriunde pe lume, daca nu nimeresti intr-o familie buna care sa te ajute consistent, sunt de facut mari sacrificii pt. cumparatul unei case. Sufleca-ti manecile, munceste dur, fa sacrificii si ai sa-ti iei si casutza ta mult dorita. Peste tot lumea normala face si imprumut in banca pt. o casa, nu doar in Israel. Fii optimist, nu mai da vina pe altii daca tie nu-ti reuseste ceva, TU esti responsabil de viata ta, nu statul, nu colonii, nimeni.
Cand doresti o realizare, tu esti singurul care o poate duce la capat.
Buona fortuna, sincer.


La 2005-08-23 13:45:41, CHIORU a scris:

> (grup de discutie si de aia sunt nevoit sa ti raspund de fiecare data
> separat).
> e corect ce spui tu (ca eu nu ma refer la banii care ploua peste
> palestinieni) - insa - trebuie sa intelegi si tu un lucru (pe care nu
> ai cum sa l sti deoarece nu traiesti aici) - ceea ce ma enerveaza pe
> mine si pe inca multi altii este politica de - pt unii muma pt altii
> ciuma - nu este posibil ca in teritorii sa ploua cu bani si subsidii
> etc etc etc si in interiorul liniei verzi (in israelul propiu zis) sa
> fie un chin pana iti cumperi un apartament prapadit mic si vechi.
> nu este acceptabil ca unii (aproape neproductivi si aroganti fata de
> stat) care stiu sa jumuleasca banii publici, sa si poata permite
> fara probleme vile subsidiate grosolan din taxele contribuabililor -
> si altii sa se chinuie cu salarii de mizerie si datorii enorme la
> banca - daca n ai stiut - asta e principalul motiv pt care
> majoritatea israelienilor nu i inghit pe colonisti,
> ciao carra.
> 

Christa
2005-08-23 14:35:29

Reportaje

Reportaje
In toata mass-media
Emotionale, emotionante, tulburatoare... Despre colonistii obligati sa isi paraseasca locuintele. Despre soldatii israelieni pusi la grea incercare, intrebindu-se ce crede Dumnezeu. Frumos...
Oare unde erau aceleasi mass-media atunci cind erau "evacuati", pardon, alungati din casele si de pe paminturile lor palestinienii? Oare acea "evacuare" a fost tot atit de blinda, le-a pus soldatilor aceleasi probleme etice, psihologice? Intrebare retorica, desigur.
Palestinienii au devenit doar o masa de manevra in mina arabilor, a URSSului si altora. Doar populatia unor cimpuri de concentratie, traind din "pomana" altora, pierzindu-si mindria si ratiunea de a exista.
I-am condamnat si eu, cindva.
Apoi... am reusit sa citesc, sa vad si altceva decit propaganda oficiala. Si situatia altor populatii cu care s-a "jucat" istoria relativ recenta.
Si sa ma intreb: oare cite din populatiile actuale ale lumii ar fi reactionat frumos, elegant, rational, daca ar fi fost alungate brutal de pe pamintul lor, din casele lor, daca li s-ar fi luat orice speranta de viitor, de demnitate?
Da, se evacueaza colonistii din Gaza. Dar acei palestinieni alungati cindva si ei "de acasa" au sa continue sa nu aiba dreptul de a se intoarce acasa. Nimeni nu ar accepta-o.
Au sa continue sa fie doar o biata masa de manevra. Priviti arogant si superior de cei care nu au fost nevoiti sa treaca prin aceleasi "experiente"... Chiar si de cei care se presupune ca ar fi trecut... (-

Sobru
2005-08-23 15:02:28

Re: Gaza and the next war

Ce sa-ti povestesc, dureroasa chestie pentru colonisti.
Ca si pentru nomenclaturistii din Primaverii. Fi-mi-ar sila.

George-Felix
2005-08-23 15:07:36

Re: Reportaje

La 2005-08-23 14:35:29, Christa a scris:


Christa,

Io inteleg ce spui si ai si oleaca de dreptate. Nimeni nu reactioneaza frumos in astfel de conditii. Un amanunt insa, important zic eu:

nu guvernul Israelului i-a alungat pe palestinieni din Israel ci conducatorii arabi le-au ordonat sa plece promitandu-le ca o sa revina dupa ce evreii vor fi complet alungati de acolo. SI facand rost de masa de manevra uriasa, interesata nu de pace ci de alungarea evreilor.

Primii manipulatori ai palestinienilor nu sunt nici rusii, nici americanii, si de fapt nici evreii, ci conducatorii arabi. Si daca te uiti ce bogati sunt conducatorii arabi si in ce conditii traiesc palestinienii..,


Felix




> Reportaje
> In toata mass-media
> Emotionale, emotionante, tulburatoare... Despre colonistii obligati sa
> isi paraseasca locuintele. Despre soldatii israelieni pusi la grea
> incercare, intrebindu-se ce crede Dumnezeu. Frumos...
> Oare unde erau aceleasi mass-media atunci cind erau
> "evacuati", pardon, alungati din casele si de pe
> paminturile lor palestinienii? Oare acea "evacuare" a fost
> tot atit de blinda, le-a pus soldatilor aceleasi probleme etice,
> psihologice? Intrebare retorica, desigur.
> Palestinienii au devenit doar o masa de manevra in mina arabilor, a
> URSSului si altora. Doar populatia unor cimpuri de concentratie,
> traind din "pomana" altora, pierzindu-si mindria si
> ratiunea de a exista.
> I-am condamnat si eu, cindva.
> Apoi... am reusit sa citesc, sa vad si altceva decit propaganda
> oficiala. Si situatia altor populatii cu care s-a "jucat"
> istoria relativ recenta.
> Si sa ma intreb: oare cite din populatiile actuale ale lumii ar fi
> reactionat frumos, elegant, rational, daca ar fi fost alungate brutal
> de pe pamintul lor, din casele lor, daca li s-ar fi luat orice
> speranta de viitor, de demnitate?
> Da, se evacueaza colonistii din Gaza. Dar acei palestinieni alungati
> cindva si ei "de acasa" au sa continue sa nu aiba dreptul
> de a se intoarce acasa. Nimeni nu ar accepta-o.
> Au sa continue sa fie doar o biata masa de manevra. Priviti arogant si
> superior de cei care nu au fost nevoiti sa treaca prin aceleasi
> "experiente"... Chiar si de cei care se presupune ca ar fi
> trecut... (-
> 
> 

Sobru
2005-08-23 15:32:15

Re: Deplang cu evreii...

Ce-i aia lovitura preventiva? Asa "dreptate" poate invoca orice talhar.

Christa
2005-08-23 15:35:19

Re: Reportaje

Desigur ca situatia locala era complexa, dar palestinienii au fost alungati de armata israeliana si inca in conditii ingrozitoare. In timp ce armatele arabe NU interveneau pentru ca... n-aveau ordin.
De fapt, totul s-a jucat peste capetele populatiei locale care nu a putut decit sa fuga (cind a putut!), in timp ce casele le erau incendiate, citeodata chiar cu persoane in ele...
Dar... who cares?...
La 2005-08-23 15:07:36, George-Felix a scris:

> La 2005-08-23 14:35:29, Christa a scris:
> 
> 
>  Christa,
> 
>  Io inteleg ce spui si ai si oleaca de dreptate. Nimeni nu
> reactioneaza frumos in astfel de conditii. Un amanunt insa, important
> zic eu:
> 
>  nu guvernul Israelului i-a alungat pe palestinieni din Israel ci
> conducatorii arabi le-au ordonat sa plece promitandu-le ca o sa
> revina dupa ce evreii vor fi complet alungati de acolo. SI facand
> rost de masa de manevra uriasa, interesata nu de pace ci de alungarea
> evreilor.
> 
>  Primii manipulatori ai palestinienilor nu sunt nici rusii, nici
> americanii, si de fapt nici evreii, ci conducatorii arabi. Si daca te
> uiti ce bogati sunt conducatorii arabi si in ce conditii traiesc
> palestinienii..,
> 
> 
>  Felix
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Reportaje
> > In toata mass-media
> > Emotionale, emotionante, tulburatoare... Despre colonistii obligati sa
> > isi paraseasca locuintele. Despre soldatii israelieni pusi la grea
> > incercare, intrebindu-se ce crede Dumnezeu. Frumos...
> > Oare unde erau aceleasi mass-media atunci cind erau
> > "evacuati", pardon, alungati din casele si de pe
> > paminturile lor palestinienii? Oare acea "evacuare" a fost
> > tot atit de blinda, le-a pus soldatilor aceleasi probleme etice,
> > psihologice? Intrebare retorica, desigur.
> > Palestinienii au devenit doar o masa de manevra in mina arabilor, a
> > URSSului si altora. Doar populatia unor cimpuri de concentratie,
> > traind din "pomana" altora, pierzindu-si mindria si
> > ratiunea de a exista.
> > I-am condamnat si eu, cindva.
> > Apoi... am reusit sa citesc, sa vad si altceva decit propaganda
> > oficiala. Si situatia altor populatii cu care s-a "jucat"
> > istoria relativ recenta.
> > Si sa ma intreb: oare cite din populatiile actuale ale lumii ar fi
> > reactionat frumos, elegant, rational, daca ar fi fost alungate brutal
> > de pe pamintul lor, din casele lor, daca li s-ar fi luat orice
> > speranta de viitor, de demnitate?
> > Da, se evacueaza colonistii din Gaza. Dar acei palestinieni alungati
> > cindva si ei "de acasa" au sa continue sa nu aiba dreptul
> > de a se intoarce acasa. Nimeni nu ar accepta-o.
> > Au sa continue sa fie doar o biata masa de manevra. Priviti arogant si
> > superior de cei care nu au fost nevoiti sa treaca prin aceleasi
> > "experiente"... Chiar si de cei care se presupune ca ar fi
> > trecut... (-
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

George-Felix
2005-08-23 16:05:35

Re: Reportaje

La 2005-08-23 15:35:19, Christa a scris:

> Desigur ca situatia locala era complexa, dar palestinienii au fost
> alungati de armata israeliana si inca in conditii ingrozitoare.

Ntz. Pe bune ca, cel putin pentru o mare parte a arabilor din taberele de refugiati nu e asa. Poate ne ajuta un coleg evreu cu niste statistici, pe bune. Sau cine le are:)

Inca o precizare, astia din tabere nu provind din Gaza sau Cisiordania, ci din Israel. Pentru ei a fost o jignire existenta unui stat evreu si de aia li s-a ordonat de catre conducatorii lor sa plece.

Cine a ramas a facut o afacere buna. Pasaport israelian, reprezentare in Parlament (de regula la Partidul Muncii) samd. Cine a plecat.., a luat tzeapa, ca statul Israel se descurca bine si nu pare in curs de desfiintare ba dimpotriva. SI acum nu prea se mai poate sa li se permita sa se intoarca.


Felix

evreu mandru din israel
2005-08-23 16:28:05

Re: Deplang cu evreii...

Lovitura preventiva inseamna ca daca un talhar vrea sa te omoare, politistii sunt la o bere si n-au timp pt. tine, ii dai un picior tzintit bun exact in .oaie, ca sa vada stele verzi. Si un "pacifist " ca tine o poate intzelege.

La 2005-08-23 15:32:15, Sobru a scris:

> Ce-i aia lovitura preventiva? Asa "dreptate" poate invoca
> orice talhar.
> 

Dan Bostan
2005-08-23 16:36:47

How Violence Hurts Radical Islam

How Violence Hurts Radical Islam
By Daniel Pipes
FrontPageMagazine.com | August 23, 2005

Do terrorist atrocities in the West, such as 9/11 and those in Bali, Madrid, Beslan, and London, help radical Islam achieve its goal of gaining power?

No, they are counterproductive. That’s because radical Islam has two distinct wings – one violent and illegal, the other lawful and political – and they exist in tension with each other. Not only has the lawful one proven itself more effective, but the violent approach gets in its way.

The violent wing is foremost represented by Osama bin Laden, the world’s #1 fugitive. Recep Tayyip Erdoðan, the popular and powerful prime minister of Turkey, represents the lawful wing. Even as "Al-Qaeda has more state adversaries than nearly any force in history," as Daniel C. Twining observes, political imams like Yusuf al-Qaradawi instruct huge audiences on Al-Jazeera television and visit with the mayor of London. As Shi’ite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr skulks around Iraq, looking for a role, Ayatollah Sistani dominates the country’s political life.

Yes, terrorism kills enemies, instills fear, and disrupts the economy. Yes, it boosts morale and recruits non-Muslims to Islam and Muslims to Islamism. It creates an opportunity for Islamists to press for their favorite causes, like the elimination of Israel or coalition forces out of Iraq. It provides, as Mark Steyn notes, intelligence information on the enemy. And yes, it prompts politically correct talk about Islam being a "religion of peace," with Muslims portrayed as victims.

But, for two main reasons, terrorism does radical Islam more harm than good.

First, it alarms and galvanizes Westerners. For example, the July 7 bombings took place during the G8 summit in Scotland, where world leaders were focused on global warming, aid to Africa, and macro-economic issues. In a London minute, the politicians then redirected their attention to counterterrorism. Thus did the terrorists stiffen, as Mona Charen points out, "whatever small residue of resolve remains in flaccid Western civilization."

More broadly, Twining notes, "Al-Qaeda’s rise has produced the kind of great power entente not seen since the Concert of Europe took shape in 1815." (Even the Madrid bombings, an apparent exception, led to a marked strengthening of Spanish and European-wide counterterrorism measures.)

Second, terrorism obstructs the quiet work of political Islamism. In tranquil times, organizations like the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) and the Council on American-Islamic Relations go effectively about their business, promoting their agenda to make Islam "dominant" and imposing dhimmitude (whereby non-Muslims accept Islamic superiority and Muslim privilege). Westerners generally respond like slowly boiled frogs are supposed to, not noticing a thing.

Thus does MCB delight in a knighthood from the queen, enthusiastic support from Prime Minister Tony Blair, influence within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and £250,000 in taxpayer monies from the Department of Trade and Industry.

Across the Atlantic, CAIR insinuates itself into an array of important North American institutions, including the FBI, NASA, and Canada’s Globe and Mail newspaper. It wins endorsements from high-ranking politicians, both Republican (Florida governor Jeb Bush) and Democrat (House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi). It organizes a meeting of Muslims with Canadian prime minister Paul Martin. It gets a Hollywood studio to change a feature film plot and a television network to run a public service announcement. It goads a radio station to fire a talk-show host.

Terrorism impedes these advances, stimulating hostility to Islam and Muslims. It brings Islamic organizations under unwanted scrutiny by the media, the government, and law enforcement. CAIR and MCB then have to fight rearguard battles. The July 7 bombings dramatically (if temporarily) disrupted the progress of "Londonistan," Britain’s decline into multicultural lassitude and counterterrorist ineptitude.

Some Islamists recognize this problem. One British writer admonished fellow Muslims on a website: "Don’t you know that Islam is growing in Europe??? What the heck are you doing mingling things up???" Likewise, a Muslim watch repairer in London observed, "We don’t need to fight. We are taking over!" Soumayya Ghannoushi of the University of London bitterly points out that al-Qaeda’s major achievements consist of shedding innocent blood and "fanning the flames of hostility to Islam and Muslims."

Things are not what they seem. Terrorism hurts radical Islam and helps its opponents. The violence and victims’ agony make this hard to see, but without education by murder, the lawful Islamist movement would make greater gains.

Dan Bostan
2005-08-23 16:38:12

The Unholy Alliance Revealed

The Unholy Alliance Revealed
By Douglas Davis
The Spectator | August 23, 2005

Politics makes strange bedfellows. Stranger still when the odd couple are fundamentalist Islam and the secular Left. The evolving Black-Red alliance is growing in France, Germany and Belgium. But, based on the successful British model, it is now going global to declare war on the war on terror.

No fewer than three international conferences have been convened in Cairo, presided over by the former president of Algeria, Ahmed Ben Bella, under the auspices of the International Campaign Against US and Zionist Occupations. One outcome is 'The Cairo Declaration Against US Hegemony, War on Iraq and Solidarity with Palestine.' British signatories included Tony Benn, Jeremy Corbyn and, of course, the indefatigable George Galloway, whose 'fiery' participation won honourable mention in Egypt's semi-official newspaper, Al-Ahram.

If Iraq was the catalyst for the Black-Red alliance, the Stop the War coalition provided the cauldron in which the union was consummated. The result is a pure gestalt: the coalition allows its constituent parts to pack a far greater collective punch than they could have dreamt of on their own. Putting a million people on to the streets of London is not, after all, small potatoes.

The steering committee of the Marxist-Islamist alliance consists of 33 members - 18 from myriad hard-Left groups, three from the radical wing of the Labour party, eight from the ranks of the radical Islamists and four leftist ecologists (also known as 'Watermelons' -green outside, red inside). The chairman is Andrew Murray, a leading light in the British Communist party; co-chair is Muhammad Aslam Ijaz, of the London Council of Mosques. Among the major players from the Left are Lindsey German, who resigned as editor of the Socialist Workers' party newspaper to become convenor of the Stop the War coalition; John Rees, also of the SWP, and, of course, George Galloway. Indeed, the first proud progeny of the alliance is Galloway's Respect party, which fought and won the London seat of Bethnal Green and Bow, with its substantial Muslim electorate.

Points of potential disagreement between the hard Left and radical Islam - democracy, human rights, xenophobia, free-expression, feminism, homosexuality, abortion, among many others - would seem to pose insuperable barriers to the union. Not so. The hurdles have been neatly vaulted in the interest of mutual hatreds: America, Israel, globalisation, capitalism and imperialism. Anti-Semitism is never far from the surface.

True, there is some squeamishness within the 'house of horrors'. Dissent is evident in the Socialist Workers' party but not in the Muslim Association of Britain, which was inspired by the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood and now shelters under the umbrella of Sir Iqbal Sacranie's Muslim Council of Britain (it was, let it not be forgotten, the good Sir Iqbal who, before being scrubbed up and knighted, declared that 'death is perhaps too easy' for the allegedly blasphemous Salman Rushdie; it was Sir Iqbal, too, who refused to participate in this year's Holocaust memorial events because they did not refer to the supposed genocide of the Palestinians).

Those on the Left who support the alliance have found not only a revitalising cause but also an unexpected and deep hinterland from which to draw support. 'The practical benefits of working together are enough to compensate for the differences,' I was told. 'And success tends to win the argument.' Such opportunism exposes a strain of pernicious racism that allows the Left to indulge outrageous bigotry as long as it is espoused by brown people.

'The far Left will always support Third World peoples against what they view as an imperialist West,' notes one analyst who has closely followed the phenomenon. Another says, 'Islamists in the West have skilfully used the tools of intellectual intimidation to build an inviolate wall around Islam, giving it a sacred status that brooks no criticism.' The French Leftist leader Olivier Besançonneau added political piquancy when explaining his inclusivist approach to the Islamists: 'Are these not the new slaves? Is it not natural they should unite with the working class to destroy the capitalist system?'

But there are small voices of doubt. To some within Britain's Trotskyite Alliance for Workers' Liberty, the unholy marriage is outright heresy. One Trot describes SWP advocates of the Black-Red alliance as 'demoralised Guardian readers with headscarves', a withering allusion to the SWP organiser who ordered secular, socialist women to cover their heads while demonstrating with their Muslim sisters outside the Israeli embassy in London. And he is scathing of SWP monitors who enforced gender segregation to mollify Muslim sensibilities at a demonstration in Trafalgar Square. 'Marxists are secular or they are not Marxists,' said the Trot with principled purity.

Dogma runs deep. The Islamists accentuate the positive, noting Galloway's opposition to abortion and his professed religious faith, which, according to one, 'will surely be welcomed by British Muslims who see Respect as a real alternative'. And why complain when the Left is so obligingly on message? Take Spark, the organ of Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour party, which hailed Asif Mohammed Hanif, the British suicide-bomber who attacked a beachfront bar in Tel Aviv, as a 'hero of the revolutionary youth'. Hanif, declared the paper, had carried out his mission 'in the spirit of internationalism'.

The fact is the coalition has been a godsend to both sides. The Left, a once-dwindling band of communists, Trotskyites, Maoists and Castroists, had been clinging to the dregs of a clapped-out cause; the Islamists could deliver numbers and passion, but they needed a vehicle to give them purchase on the political terrain. A tactical alliance became an operational imperative.

Indeed, the first to advocate the Black-Red alliance was none other than Ayman al-Zawahiri, deputy to Osama bin Laden and ideologue of al-Qa'eda. In a message delivered in August 2002, he called on sympathisers to seek allies among 'any movement that opposes America, even atheists'. This sentiment was refined in London by Abu Hamza al-Masri, the hook-handed Islamist from Central Casting who is currently fighting extradition to the United States on terrorism charges. 'We say to anyone who hates the Americans and wants to throw the Jews out of Palestine - Ahlan wa Sahlan (welcome). The Prophet teaches that we could ally ourselves even with the atheists if it helps us destroy [the] enemy.'

But the Tora Bora Award for Chutzpah goes to George Galloway, veteran champion of Arab and Islamist causes. Appearing on al-Jazeera television last month, he attacked the West while extolling Islamic virtue. 'It's not the Muslims who are the terrorists,' he declared. 'The biggest terrorists are Bush and Blair, Berlusconi and Aznar.... We believe in the Prophets, peace be upon them. [Bush] believes in the profits, and how to get a piece of them. That's his god.'

Marx meets Mohammed. High theatre meets low farce. The savvy Galloway, now more godly than gorgeous, has created a conduit through which Islamofascism pumps its poison into Britain's political bloodstream. It would be quite funny were it not so serious.

Christa
2005-08-23 17:10:14

In privinta asta cred ca ar trebui intrebate victimele.

Pornisem de la diferenta dintre felul extrem de intelegator in care au fost evacuati colonistii israelieni si cel in care au fost alungati locuitorii palestinieni din teritoriul actual al Israelului.
De la modul in care niste oameni au devenit o simpla masa de manevra pentru diverse interese (nu ale lor!). Ei, printre alte victime ale istoriei recente.
Se pare ca, pentru tine, versiunea si statisticile oficiale (mai ales israeliene:)) sunt foarte importante. Pentru mine... - au fost.
Acum sunt dispusa sa vad si "dupa" cortina oficiala.
Acolo unde este foarte mult gri. Si neintelegere. Si suferinta cronica, acutizata citeodata spre neintelegerea celor care se uita la "statistici", "tzepe", "afaceri bune".
Nu pot sa nu imi spun ca unora li s-a refuzat in mod brutal dreptul de a face "buna afacere" sa ramina la ei acasa. Si sa nu vad brutalitatea tragica a expresiei.


La 2005-08-23 15:35:19, Christa a scris:

> Desigur ca situatia locala era complexa, dar palestinienii au fost
> alungati de armata israeliana si inca in conditii ingrozitoare. In
> timp ce armatele arabe NU interveneau pentru ca... n-aveau ordin.
> De fapt, totul s-a jucat peste capetele populatiei locale care nu a
> putut decit sa fuga (cind a putut!), in timp ce casele le erau
> incendiate, citeodata chiar cu persoane in ele...
> Dar... who cares?...

> La 2005-08-23 15:07:36, George-Felix a scris:
> 
> > La 2005-08-23 14:35:29, Christa a scris:
> > 
> > 
> >  Christa,
> > 
> >  Io inteleg ce spui si ai si oleaca de dreptate. Nimeni nu
> > reactioneaza frumos in astfel de conditii. Un amanunt insa, important
> > zic eu:
> > 
> >  nu guvernul Israelului i-a alungat pe palestinieni din Israel ci
> > conducatorii arabi le-au ordonat sa plece promitandu-le ca o sa
> > revina dupa ce evreii vor fi complet alungati de acolo. SI facand
> > rost de masa de manevra uriasa, interesata nu de pace ci de alungarea
> > evreilor.
> > 
> >  Primii manipulatori ai palestinienilor nu sunt nici rusii, nici
> > americanii, si de fapt nici evreii, ci conducatorii arabi. Si daca te
> > uiti ce bogati sunt conducatorii arabi si in ce conditii traiesc
> > palestinienii..,
> > 
> > 
> >  Felix
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Reportaje
> > > In toata mass-media
> > > Emotionale, emotionante, tulburatoare... Despre colonistii obligati sa
> > > isi paraseasca locuintele. Despre soldatii israelieni pusi la grea
> > > incercare, intrebindu-se ce crede Dumnezeu. Frumos...
> > > Oare unde erau aceleasi mass-media atunci cind erau
> > > "evacuati", pardon, alungati din casele si de pe
> > > paminturile lor palestinienii? Oare acea "evacuare" a fost
> > > tot atit de blinda, le-a pus soldatilor aceleasi probleme etice,
> > > psihologice? Intrebare retorica, desigur.
> > > Palestinienii au devenit doar o masa de manevra in mina arabilor, a
> > > URSSului si altora. Doar populatia unor cimpuri de concentratie,
> > > traind din "pomana" altora, pierzindu-si mindria si
> > > ratiunea de a exista.
> > > I-am condamnat si eu, cindva.
> > > Apoi... am reusit sa citesc, sa vad si altceva decit propaganda
> > > oficiala. Si situatia altor populatii cu care s-a "jucat"
> > > istoria relativ recenta.
> > > Si sa ma intreb: oare cite din populatiile actuale ale lumii ar fi
> > > reactionat frumos, elegant, rational, daca ar fi fost alungate brutal
> > > de pe pamintul lor, din casele lor, daca li s-ar fi luat orice
> > > speranta de viitor, de demnitate?
> > > Da, se evacueaza colonistii din Gaza. Dar acei palestinieni alungati
> > > cindva si ei "de acasa" au sa continue sa nu aiba dreptul
> > > de a se intoarce acasa. Nimeni nu ar accepta-o.
> > > Au sa continue sa fie doar o biata masa de manevra. Priviti arogant si
> > > superior de cei care nu au fost nevoiti sa treaca prin aceleasi
> > > "experiente"... Chiar si de cei care se presupune ca ar fi
> > > trecut... (-
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

serios-glumetul
2005-08-23 17:33:06

DA CE BRE da ce !!????

E pacat bre !

George-Felix
2005-08-23 17:33:52

Re: In privinta asta cred ca ar trebui intrebate victimele.

La 2005-08-23 17:10:14, Christa a scris:

Christa,

Am senzatia ca pledoaria mea nu a ajuns pana la tine. O repet.

Sunt gata sa imi fie mila de victime reale, nu sunt insa dispus sa plang de mila sinucigasilor.

Din cate stiu eu, nu soldatii israelieni i-au alungat pe palestinieni, ci conducatorii arabi le-au ordonat sa plece din Israel promitandu-le ca o sa revina dupa alungarea definitiva a evreilor.

Daca ai date concrete care sa sustina ca soldatii evrei i-au alungat pe palestinieni, sunt gata sa le citesc cu atentie. Pe colegii evrei ii rugam sa vina cu datele lor. Vedem una, vedem alta si ne formam o parere.


Felix

Christa
2005-08-23 17:52:20

Dialog de surzi...

La 2005-08-23 17:10:14, Christa a scris:

> Pornisem de la diferenta dintre felul extrem de intelegator in care au
> fost evacuati colonistii israelieni si cel in care au fost alungati
> locuitorii palestinieni din teritoriul actual al Israelului.
> De la modul in care niste oameni au devenit o simpla masa de manevra
> pentru diverse interese (nu ale lor!). Ei, printre alte victime ale
> istoriei recente.
> Se pare ca, pentru tine, versiunea si statisticile oficiale (mai ales
> israeliene:)) sunt foarte importante. Pentru mine... - au fost.
> Acum sunt dispusa sa vad si "dupa" cortina oficiala.
> Acolo unde este foarte mult gri. Si neintelegere. Si suferinta
> cronica, acutizata citeodata spre neintelegerea celor care se uita la
> "statistici", "tzepe", "afaceri bune".
> Nu pot sa nu imi spun ca unora li s-a refuzat in mod brutal dreptul de
> a face "buna afacere" sa ramina la ei acasa. Si sa nu vad
> brutalitatea tragica a expresiei.
> 
> 
> La 2005-08-23 15:35:19, Christa a scris:
> 
> > Desigur ca situatia locala era complexa, dar palestinienii au fost
> > alungati de armata israeliana si inca in conditii ingrozitoare. In
> > timp ce armatele arabe NU interveneau pentru ca... n-aveau ordin.
> > De fapt, totul s-a jucat peste capetele populatiei locale care nu a
> > putut decit sa fuga (cind a putut!), in timp ce casele le erau
> > incendiate, citeodata chiar cu persoane in ele...
> > Dar... who cares?...
> 
> > La 2005-08-23 15:07:36, George-Felix a scris:
> > 
> > > La 2005-08-23 14:35:29, Christa a scris:
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  Christa,
> > > 
> > >  Io inteleg ce spui si ai si oleaca de dreptate. Nimeni nu
> > > reactioneaza frumos in astfel de conditii. Un amanunt insa, important
> > > zic eu:
> > > 
> > >  nu guvernul Israelului i-a alungat pe palestinieni din Israel ci
> > > conducatorii arabi le-au ordonat sa plece promitandu-le ca o sa
> > > revina dupa ce evreii vor fi complet alungati de acolo. SI facand
> > > rost de masa de manevra uriasa, interesata nu de pace ci de alungarea
> > > evreilor.
> > > 
> > >  Primii manipulatori ai palestinienilor nu sunt nici rusii, nici
> > > americanii, si de fapt nici evreii, ci conducatorii arabi. Si daca te
> > > uiti ce bogati sunt conducatorii arabi si in ce conditii traiesc
> > > palestinienii..,
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  Felix
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Reportaje
> > > > In toata mass-media
> > > > Emotionale, emotionante, tulburatoare... Despre colonistii obligati sa
> > > > isi paraseasca locuintele. Despre soldatii israelieni pusi la grea
> > > > incercare, intrebindu-se ce crede Dumnezeu. Frumos...
> > > > Oare unde erau aceleasi mass-media atunci cind erau
> > > > "evacuati", pardon, alungati din casele si de pe
> > > > paminturile lor palestinienii? Oare acea "evacuare" a fost
> > > > tot atit de blinda, le-a pus soldatilor aceleasi probleme etice,
> > > > psihologice? Intrebare retorica, desigur.
> > > > Palestinienii au devenit doar o masa de manevra in mina arabilor, a
> > > > URSSului si altora. Doar populatia unor cimpuri de concentratie,
> > > > traind din "pomana" altora, pierzindu-si mindria si
> > > > ratiunea de a exista.
> > > > I-am condamnat si eu, cindva.
> > > > Apoi... am reusit sa citesc, sa vad si altceva decit propaganda
> > > > oficiala. Si situatia altor populatii cu care s-a "jucat"
> > > > istoria relativ recenta.
> > > > Si sa ma intreb: oare cite din populatiile actuale ale lumii ar fi
> > > > reactionat frumos, elegant, rational, daca ar fi fost alungate brutal
> > > > de pe pamintul lor, din casele lor, daca li s-ar fi luat orice
> > > > speranta de viitor, de demnitate?
> > > > Da, se evacueaza colonistii din Gaza. Dar acei palestinieni alungati
> > > > cindva si ei "de acasa" au sa continue sa nu aiba dreptul
> > > > de a se intoarce acasa. Nimeni nu ar accepta-o.
> > > > Au sa continue sa fie doar o biata masa de manevra. Priviti arogant si
> > > > superior de cei care nu au fost nevoiti sa treaca prin aceleasi
> > > > "experiente"... Chiar si de cei care se presupune ca ar fi
> > > > trecut... (-
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

Christa
2005-08-23 18:01:32

Dialog de surzi

Nu am "date". Un reportaj a trezit amintirea altor reportaje de pe Arte. Si ale unor articole in care militari israelieni si-au recunoscut implicarea in izgonirea palestinienilor.
Tu ai incercat sa ma convingi sa revin la "statistici" si "date oficiale". iar eu... iti multumesc, dar am trecut deja prin asta.
Pe de alta parte, ca maaarea majoritate a oamenilor, nu pot spune ca problema palestiniana, sau cecena, sau congoleza, sau armeniana sau... ar fi problemele mele esentiale.
Poate doar o "béa" de moment.
O zi buna.

La 2005-08-23 17:10:14, Christa a scris:

> Pornisem de la diferenta dintre felul extrem de intelegator in care au
> fost evacuati colonistii israelieni si cel in care au fost alungati
> locuitorii palestinieni din teritoriul actual al Israelului.
> De la modul in care niste oameni au devenit o simpla masa de manevra
> pentru diverse interese (nu ale lor!). Ei, printre alte victime ale
> istoriei recente.
> Se pare ca, pentru tine, versiunea si statisticile oficiale (mai ales
> israeliene:)) sunt foarte importante. Pentru mine... - au fost.
> Acum sunt dispusa sa vad si "dupa" cortina oficiala.
> Acolo unde este foarte mult gri. Si neintelegere. Si suferinta
> cronica, acutizata citeodata spre neintelegerea celor care se uita la
> "statistici", "tzepe", "afaceri bune".
> Nu pot sa nu imi spun ca unora li s-a refuzat in mod brutal dreptul de
> a face "buna afacere" sa ramina la ei acasa. Si sa nu vad
> brutalitatea tragica a expresiei.
> 
> 
> La 2005-08-23 15:35:19, Christa a scris:
> 
> > Desigur ca situatia locala era complexa, dar palestinienii au fost
> > alungati de armata israeliana si inca in conditii ingrozitoare. In
> > timp ce armatele arabe NU interveneau pentru ca... n-aveau ordin.
> > De fapt, totul s-a jucat peste capetele populatiei locale care nu a
> > putut decit sa fuga (cind a putut!), in timp ce casele le erau
> > incendiate, citeodata chiar cu persoane in ele...
> > Dar... who cares?...
> 
> > La 2005-08-23 15:07:36, George-Felix a scris:
> > 
> > > La 2005-08-23 14:35:29, Christa a scris:
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  Christa,
> > > 
> > >  Io inteleg ce spui si ai si oleaca de dreptate. Nimeni nu
> > > reactioneaza frumos in astfel de conditii. Un amanunt insa, important
> > > zic eu:
> > > 
> > >  nu guvernul Israelului i-a alungat pe palestinieni din Israel ci
> > > conducatorii arabi le-au ordonat sa plece promitandu-le ca o sa
> > > revina dupa ce evreii vor fi complet alungati de acolo. SI facand
> > > rost de masa de manevra uriasa, interesata nu de pace ci de alungarea
> > > evreilor.
> > > 
> > >  Primii manipulatori ai palestinienilor nu sunt nici rusii, nici
> > > americanii, si de fapt nici evreii, ci conducatorii arabi. Si daca te
> > > uiti ce bogati sunt conducatorii arabi si in ce conditii traiesc
> > > palestinienii..,
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  Felix
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Reportaje
> > > > In toata mass-media
> > > > Emotionale, emotionante, tulburatoare... Despre colonistii obligati sa
> > > > isi paraseasca locuintele. Despre soldatii israelieni pusi la grea
> > > > incercare, intrebindu-se ce crede Dumnezeu. Frumos...
> > > > Oare unde erau aceleasi mass-media atunci cind erau
> > > > "evacuati", pardon, alungati din casele si de pe
> > > > paminturile lor palestinienii? Oare acea "evacuare" a fost
> > > > tot atit de blinda, le-a pus soldatilor aceleasi probleme etice,
> > > > psihologice? Intrebare retorica, desigur.
> > > > Palestinienii au devenit doar o masa de manevra in mina arabilor, a
> > > > URSSului si altora. Doar populatia unor cimpuri de concentratie,
> > > > traind din "pomana" altora, pierzindu-si mindria si
> > > > ratiunea de a exista.
> > > > I-am condamnat si eu, cindva.
> > > > Apoi... am reusit sa citesc, sa vad si altceva decit propaganda
> > > > oficiala. Si situatia altor populatii cu care s-a "jucat"
> > > > istoria relativ recenta.
> > > > Si sa ma intreb: oare cite din populatiile actuale ale lumii ar fi
> > > > reactionat frumos, elegant, rational, daca ar fi fost alungate brutal
> > > > de pe pamintul lor, din casele lor, daca li s-ar fi luat orice
> > > > speranta de viitor, de demnitate?
> > > > Da, se evacueaza colonistii din Gaza. Dar acei palestinieni alungati
> > > > cindva si ei "de acasa" au sa continue sa nu aiba dreptul
> > > > de a se intoarce acasa. Nimeni nu ar accepta-o.
> > > > Au sa continue sa fie doar o biata masa de manevra. Priviti arogant si
> > > > superior de cei care nu au fost nevoiti sa treaca prin aceleasi
> > > > "experiente"... Chiar si de cei care se presupune ca ar fi
> > > > trecut... (-
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

Golanul
2005-08-23 18:50:06

Re: Dialog de surzi - adica prins cu ocaua mica...

Propaganda insidioasa porneste de la o minciuna care este prezentata ca adevar verificat. Christa a incercat sa puna baza discutiei pe o paralela neadevarata. Cind a fost prinsa cu mitza in sac (felicitari Felix pentru rabdare) a vrut intii sa se retraga otzarita, calificind discutia drept dialog de surzi. Dindu-si seama apoi ca a calcat in strachina, revine afirmind ca n-o prea intereseaza subiectul.

Atunci de unde atita patos si sentiment in prezentarea frumos ambalata, menita sa stoarca lacrimi, a unei minciuni?

La 2005-08-23 18:01:32, Christa a scris:

> Nu am "date". Un reportaj a trezit amintirea altor reportaje
> de pe Arte. Si ale unor articole in care militari israelieni si-au
> recunoscut implicarea in izgonirea palestinienilor.
> Tu ai incercat sa ma convingi sa revin la "statistici" si
> "date oficiale". iar eu... iti multumesc, dar am trecut
> deja prin asta.
> Pe de alta parte, ca maaarea majoritate a oamenilor, nu pot spune ca
> problema palestiniana, sau cecena, sau congoleza, sau armeniana
> sau... ar fi problemele mele esentiale.
> Poate doar o "béa" de moment.
> O zi buna.
> 
> La 2005-08-23 17:10:14, Christa a scris:
> 
> > Pornisem de la diferenta dintre felul extrem de intelegator in care au
> > fost evacuati colonistii israelieni si cel in care au fost alungati
> > locuitorii palestinieni din teritoriul actual al Israelului.
> > De la modul in care niste oameni au devenit o simpla masa de manevra
> > pentru diverse interese (nu ale lor!). Ei, printre alte victime ale
> > istoriei recente.
> > Se pare ca, pentru tine, versiunea si statisticile oficiale (mai ales
> > israeliene:)) sunt foarte importante. Pentru mine... - au fost.
> > Acum sunt dispusa sa vad si "dupa" cortina oficiala.
> > Acolo unde este foarte mult gri. Si neintelegere. Si suferinta
> > cronica, acutizata citeodata spre neintelegerea celor care se uita la
> > "statistici", "tzepe", "afaceri bune".
> > Nu pot sa nu imi spun ca unora li s-a refuzat in mod brutal dreptul de
> > a face "buna afacere" sa ramina la ei acasa. Si sa nu vad
> > brutalitatea tragica a expresiei.
> > 
> > 
> > La 2005-08-23 15:35:19, Christa a scris:
> > 
> > > Desigur ca situatia locala era complexa, dar palestinienii au fost
> > > alungati de armata israeliana si inca in conditii ingrozitoare. In
> > > timp ce armatele arabe NU interveneau pentru ca... n-aveau ordin.
> > > De fapt, totul s-a jucat peste capetele populatiei locale care nu a
> > > putut decit sa fuga (cind a putut!), in timp ce casele le erau
> > > incendiate, citeodata chiar cu persoane in ele...
> > > Dar... who cares?...
> > 
> > > La 2005-08-23 15:07:36, George-Felix a scris:
> > > 
> > > > La 2005-08-23 14:35:29, Christa a scris:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  Christa,
> > > > 
> > > >  Io inteleg ce spui si ai si oleaca de dreptate. Nimeni nu
> > > > reactioneaza frumos in astfel de conditii. Un amanunt insa, important
> > > > zic eu:
> > > > 
> > > >  nu guvernul Israelului i-a alungat pe palestinieni din Israel ci
> > > > conducatorii arabi le-au ordonat sa plece promitandu-le ca o sa
> > > > revina dupa ce evreii vor fi complet alungati de acolo. SI facand
> > > > rost de masa de manevra uriasa, interesata nu de pace ci de alungarea
> > > > evreilor.
> > > > 
> > > >  Primii manipulatori ai palestinienilor nu sunt nici rusii, nici
> > > > americanii, si de fapt nici evreii, ci conducatorii arabi. Si daca te
> > > > uiti ce bogati sunt conducatorii arabi si in ce conditii traiesc
> > > > palestinienii..,
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  Felix
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > Reportaje
> > > > > In toata mass-media
> > > > > Emotionale, emotionante, tulburatoare... Despre colonistii obligati sa
> > > > > isi paraseasca locuintele. Despre soldatii israelieni pusi la grea
> > > > > incercare, intrebindu-se ce crede Dumnezeu. Frumos...
> > > > > Oare unde erau aceleasi mass-media atunci cind erau
> > > > > "evacuati", pardon, alungati din casele si de pe
> > > > > paminturile lor palestinienii? Oare acea "evacuare" a fost
> > > > > tot atit de blinda, le-a pus soldatilor aceleasi probleme etice,
> > > > > psihologice? Intrebare retorica, desigur.
> > > > > Palestinienii au devenit doar o masa de manevra in mina arabilor, a
> > > > > URSSului si altora. Doar populatia unor cimpuri de concentratie,
> > > > > traind din "pomana" altora, pierzindu-si mindria si
> > > > > ratiunea de a exista.
> > > > > I-am condamnat si eu, cindva.
> > > > > Apoi... am reusit sa citesc, sa vad si altceva decit propaganda
> > > > > oficiala. Si situatia altor populatii cu care s-a "jucat"
> > > > > istoria relativ recenta.
> > > > > Si sa ma intreb: oare cite din populatiile actuale ale lumii ar fi
> > > > > reactionat frumos, elegant, rational, daca ar fi fost alungate brutal
> > > > > de pe pamintul lor, din casele lor, daca li s-ar fi luat orice
> > > > > speranta de viitor, de demnitate?
> > > > > Da, se evacueaza colonistii din Gaza. Dar acei palestinieni alungati
> > > > > cindva si ei "de acasa" au sa continue sa nu aiba dreptul
> > > > > de a se intoarce acasa. Nimeni nu ar accepta-o.
> > > > > Au sa continue sa fie doar o biata masa de manevra. Priviti arogant si
> > > > > superior de cei care nu au fost nevoiti sa treaca prin aceleasi
> > > > > "experiente"... Chiar si de cei care se presupune ca ar fi
> > > > > trecut... (-
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

George-Felix
2005-08-23 19:01:41

Re: Dialog de surzi

La 2005-08-23 18:01:32, Christa a scris:

> Nu am "date". Un reportaj a trezit amintirea altor reportaje
> de pe Arte. Si ale unor articole in care militari israelieni si-au
> recunoscut implicarea in izgonirea palestinienilor.

Esti sigura ca nu mixezi amintirile? Ca au fost multe astfel de episoade, pana in zilele noastre, in care case ale palestinienilor au fost daramate ca represalii, dupa ce familia a fost scoasa din casa cu forta.

Io nu am pledat pentru date "oficiale" ci pentru date cat mai exacte cu putinta: cati palestinieni au fost scosi din casele lor de catre soldatii israelieni si cati au plecat ca nu au vrut sa stea intr-un stat evreiesc? Si cand au fost expulzati? samd

E o bine cunoscuta "calitate" a creierului nostru aceea de a inventa trecutul, pe bune. De aceea rapelul la date scrise e, pentru mine, intotdeauna binevenit. Si apli pe cat pot principiul "audiatur et altera pars!"


Felix

Aladin
2005-08-23 19:41:14

Dece atata interes pentru ce se intampla acolo?

Ii inteleg pe cei ce locuiesc acolo,
Ii inteleg pe cei carora evenimentele de acolo le influenteaza viata personala. ( aici intra si americanii platitori de taxe care trebuie sa suporte gogomaniile guvernantilor tarilor de unde locuiesc)
Dar sunt impotriva celor (evrei sau nu) care tranca- fleanca isi dau cu parerea si uneori pun umarul cu forta pentru niste convingeri care ar trebui sa fie straine de persoana lor.
Acest " buric al pamantului" e unul fals e doar religia lor care ii numeste "popor ales" dar sunt si alte religii si sunt si foarte multi liberi cugetatori. Lasati-i sa faca ce vor ca fiecare dupa fapta si rasplata.
Pt. Romani (adevarati) : abandonati discutiile pe acest gen de "stiri".
Ceilalti vor shoma si le va dispare aroganta si violenta cu care se manifesta pe acest forum . Ii stiti ,veti vedea ca vor cauta noi provocari.
Uitati-i nu merita atentia voastra. Sunt toti niste badarani.
Fiti odata inteligenti, nu va lasati provocati.
Fie ca pacea sa vina in sufletele si casele voastre.

Mos Grigore
2005-08-23 19:45:10

Re: In privinta asta cred ca ar trebui intrebate victimele. Felix

La 2005-08-23 17:33:52, George-Felix a scris:

> La 2005-08-23 17:10:14, Christa a scris:
> 
>  Christa,
> 
>  Am senzatia ca pledoaria mea nu a ajuns pana la tine. O repet.
> 
>  ======================================================

e o problema cu astia din Belgia: cred ca e ceva cu apa ca l-au dat in judecta si pe Bush si pe Sharon etc. Numai pe cremenalu ala al lor l-au dat la re-educare.

E bine totusi ca lume e pragatita, o sa treaca mai usor la Islam.

roy
2005-08-23 19:49:08

Re: principalul motiv pt care majoritatea israelienilor nu i inghit pe colonisti

Oriana,

I-ai raspuns foarte corect lui Chioru.

In Israel, lumea munceste sdin greu si ajunge la casa. Majoritatea famiilor (peste 70%) poseda cel putzin un apartament. Procentul asta depaseste cu mult pe cel american.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
La 2005-08-23 14:06:48, Oriana a scris:

> stai linistit, vad ca Sharon intoarce foaia si cu acesti colonisti- a'
> propos, chiar m-a indignat tepismul ala gratuit cu aruncatul de acid
> peste bietii soldati tineri, trimisi fara arme si cat se poate de
> intelegatori -
> Cat despre casa, oriunde pe lume, daca nu nimeresti intr-o familie
> buna care sa te ajute consistent, sunt de facut mari sacrificii pt.
> cumparatul unei case. Sufleca-ti manecile, munceste dur, fa
> sacrificii si ai sa-ti iei si casutza ta mult dorita. Peste tot lumea
> normala face si imprumut in banca pt. o casa, nu doar in Israel. Fii
> optimist, nu mai da vina pe altii daca tie nu-ti reuseste ceva, TU
> esti responsabil de viata ta, nu statul, nu colonii, nimeni.
> Cand doresti o realizare, tu esti singurul care o poate duce la
> capat.
> Buona fortuna, sincer.
> 
> 
> La 2005-08-23 13:45:41, CHIORU a scris:
> 
> > (grup de discutie si de aia sunt nevoit sa ti raspund de fiecare data
> > separat).
> > e corect ce spui tu (ca eu nu ma refer la banii care ploua peste
> > palestinieni) - insa - trebuie sa intelegi si tu un lucru (pe care nu
> > ai cum sa l sti deoarece nu traiesti aici) - ceea ce ma enerveaza pe
> > mine si pe inca multi altii este politica de - pt unii muma pt altii
> > ciuma - nu este posibil ca in teritorii sa ploua cu bani si subsidii
> > etc etc etc si in interiorul liniei verzi (in israelul propiu zis) sa
> > fie un chin pana iti cumperi un apartament prapadit mic si vechi.
> > nu este acceptabil ca unii (aproape neproductivi si aroganti fata de
> > stat) care stiu sa jumuleasca banii publici, sa si poata permite
> > fara probleme vile subsidiate grosolan din taxele contribuabililor -
> > si altii sa se chinuie cu salarii de mizerie si datorii enorme la
> > banca - daca n ai stiut - asta e principalul motiv pt care
> > majoritatea israelienilor nu i inghit pe colonisti,
> > ciao carra.
> > 
> 
> 

roy
2005-08-23 20:06:20

Re: Gaza and the next war

Ii astepatam pe palestinieni cu pacea de cca 11 ani. Israelul a acceptat sa vorbeasca cu o organizatzie terorista, ba chiar a si cedat autoriatea si teritorii acestei organizatzii.

Ce a primit Israelul in schimb? Absolut nimic, in afara de o intifada si calcarea in picioare de catre Arafat a semnaturii sale pe toate tratatele semnate.

Gaza va fi un laborator. Nu va reusi, palestinienii vor intra pe o panta care ii va rostogoli si mai jos. Azi papa bani de la ONU , europeni si donatzii arabe si au un somaj de 60%.

In 27 de ani, pana In 1994 cand a primit puterea Autoritatea Palestiniana, situatzia economica a palestinienilor se imbunatatzise de zeci de ori fatza de 1967. Aceasta Autoritate Palestiniana corupta si care a hotarat sa inceapa intifada, crezand ca ne termina s-a inselat amarnic si a condus pe palestinieni inapoi la mizeria pe care o avusesera sunb Iordanieni si Egipteni inainte de 1967.

Nu cred ca experimentul va reusii cu palestinienii impartzitzi in 5 mafii teroriste si cu lipsa totala de vointza a lui Abu Mazen, un conducator teribil de slab ca sa desfintzeze aceste grupari teroriste.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
La 2005-08-23 01:17:47, Dan Bostan a scris:

> The Washington Times
> www.washingtontimes.com
> 
> Gaza and the next war
> 
> Published August 22, 2005
> 
> In the wake of the poignant images from Gaza, where the Israeli
> withdrawal is nearly complete, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is under
> intensified fire from two sets of critics: 1) those on the Israeli
> right who cannot understand why he would withdraw from the territory,
> given the lack of a serious Palestinian peace partner; and 2) the
> usual suspects, most of them on the left, who see every
> unreciprocated Israeli concession to the Palestinians as
> insufficient. For example, the New York Times editorialized that the
> Israeli withdrawal from Gaza can only be the beginning, and that Mr.
> Sharon must give up the West Bank next.
>  It would be difficult to find an argument more disconnected from
> reality; anyone who thinks that more Israeli concessions comprise the
> magic way to peace should look carefully at the experience of the past
> 12 years. In 1993, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin recognized Yasser
> Arafat and the PLO as the representatives of the Palestinian people.
> Over the next seven years, Israel ceded most of Gaza and nearly all
> of the major West Bank cities to Mr. Arafat's Palestinian Authority
> and (often with the encouragement of the Clinton administration)
> overlooked the fact that he was arming terrorist militias in the West
> Bank, doing nothing to put Hamas's terrorist infrastructure out of
> business and enabling raw anti-Semitic incitement in the Palestinian
> Authority-controlled media.
>  In July 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Mr. Arafat a
> Palestinian state that would have included Gaza, nearly the entire
> West Bank; and eastern Jerusalem. Mr. Arafat rejected the Barak offer
> and opened a war of terror that killed 1,000 Israelis and 3,000
> Palestinians. While the "peace process" was going forward,
> Israel unilaterally withdrew its forces from southern Lebanon;
> Hezbollah and its patrons in Tehran and Damascus responded to this
> Israeli concession by stepping up their weapons and logistical
> support for the terror war Mr. Arafat unleashed in the West Bank and
> Gaza in the fall of 2000.
>  But the war proved to be a disaster for the terrorist groups,
> particularly Hamas. One reason why the current Palestinian president,
> Mahmoud Abbas, could sign a cease-fire deal earlier this year with Mr.
> Sharon is that Israel, acting on its own, killed two of Hamas's
> leaders and destroyed much of Hamas's capability as a fighting force.
> Since February, Israel has scaled back its operations in Palestinian
> Authority-controlled areas against Hamas and other terrorist groups
> in the hope that Mr. Abbas will restrain the terrorists. In fact, he
> is doing precisely the opposite: Much like Yasser Arafat following
> the signing of Oslo I in 1993, Mr. Abbas seeks to co-opt Hamas by not
> forcing it to disarm and instead working with it to maintain a
> temporary "calm." (In short, to permit the terrorists to
> regroup and rebuild to target Israel on another day.) Although Mr.
> Abbas has consolidated Palestinian security services, he has not
> dealt with the larger and far more serious problem: the lawlessness
> and thuggery, usually involving armed members of his Fatah
> organization, that pervades areas controlled by the Palestinian
> Authority. Murderous anti-Semitism remains. On Saturday, for example,
> the Palestinian minister of Islamic affairs said the 1969 attack on
> al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem by a deranged Australian tourist was
> actually the work of the Israelis.
>  Further signs of trouble are everywhere. Over the weekend, a
> Hamas-affiliated Web site announced that dozens of women in the Gaza
> Strip had joined its military wing and were planning to carry out
> attacks against Israel. Hamas boss Mahmoud al-Zahar said last week
> that his organization is moving its forces to the West Bank and
> Israeli towns are "settlements" subject to attack. Even as
> Mr. Abbas was declaring that the Palestinian Authority would control
> areas evacuated by Israel, dozens of Hamas gunmen held a "press
> conference" in Gaza City to announce they would target Israel
> after disengagement.
>  Mr. Sharon's critics on the right suggest that, because Israel
> has no viable Palestinian peace partner, the Gaza pullout is a
> mistake, a show of weakness. Hamas and the other terrorist groups are
> busily spinning it that way. We agree with Mr. Sharon's argument that
> the defense resources spent on protecting outlying Gaza settlements
> could be better allocated to protect the country against terrorism.
> Israel should adopt a policy of relentless and massive deterrence,
> guaranteeing that Gaza-based terrorists will be hit very hard every
> time they fire rockets into Israel. For such a deterrence policy to
> work, it is essential that Washington support Israel when it defends
> itself against terror.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Copyright © 2005 News World Communications, Inc. All rights
> reserved.
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